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View Full Version : So, the quadruple (sp?) murder was a REVENGE KILLING...


5Reasons
12-02-2004, 10:11 AM
You know, in theory, the idea of citizens killing crooks in the act is appealing; however, in practice, I don't quite feel the same.

What's your view on this version of 'citizen participation' in public policy?

jazzyken
12-02-2004, 10:29 AM
Quadruple slaying may have been revenge for robbery
Newark police announce arrest of three other suspects in bar holdup
Thursday, December 02, 2004


Newark residents Carmen Estronza, Camilo Reyes and Jermeil Ward are believed to have been among six people who robbed La Villa Utuadeņa Night Club Oct. 27, said Lt. Derek Glenn, a Newark police spokesman.

The other robbery suspects were arrested Tuesday by a task force made up of members of the Newark police, Essex County Prosecutor's Office, FBI and U.S. Marshals Service, Glenn said. The suspects were identified as Irvington residents Tyron Taylor, 21, Keyron Blakely, 30, and Aboubacar Kamar, 20.


Police appeared eager to let the public know the victims were known criminals and not innocent victims of violence in a city where the homicide rate has been rising. The four deaths were the most of any single instance of homicide in recent Newark history, police said.

A friend of the Ward brothers said both were affiliated with a Bloods gang in Newark. The friend said a third brother, Alterice Ward, also connected to the Bloods, had been shot to death on Avon Avenue in 1999, and a first cousin, Eugene Ward, was killed on Martin Luther King Boulevard in 2000.

Kyhron Ward, 26, who had been in prison on drug charges, was a dedicated drug dealer and armed robber, but Jermeil Ward, 24, had made attempts at leading a law- abiding life, the friend said. At one point, Jermeil had gotten a job as a short-order cook in a restaurant at Newark Beth Israel Medical Center.

Employees of the restaurant, who like the friend asked not to be named, said Ward was an able employee popular with his co-workers, and was known as "Young Guns" for his speed at preparing food. They said he had not worked recently but had called within the last couple of weeks to inquire about returning. He was supposed to come in Friday, the day he was killed, to discuss employment, they said.

State records show Reyes had a criminal record for weapons possession. Estronza, a mother of several children, had no known record. She had been the sole eyewitness to a slaying on Frelinghuysen Avenue in September and was expected to testify, but police said they do not believe that case, in which two alleged Bloods members are being held, is related to Estronza's killing.



Sunday November 28th SL Article

Patrons and an employee of La Villa Utuadeņa, a nightclub at the corner of Ludlow and Evergreen, said Estronza and Reyes were regulars and were in the club the morning they were killed. They said the two left about 2:30 a.m. in the company of one or two men, but there was no sign of a dispute.

"They only came here to play pool," said Ines Rodriguez, a bartender. "They weren't troublemakers or anything like that. They were very good people. It's so shocking when stuff like this happens."

Rodriguez said her boss, who was at the bar that night, told her that the men who left with the couple were the other two victims. But a male patron, who asked not to be named, said he was there when they left and that they were not accompanied by the other two victims. He said police had showed him a picture of the victims.

jazzyken
12-02-2004, 10:31 AM
I tried to highlite all of the conflicts but NPD does not know what is going on with this mess.

My mother always told me never to open my mouth unless I know what is happening. The NPD can take a lesson from Mama Jazzy :)

Miss Tam-Tam
12-02-2004, 11:09 AM
My mother always told me never to open my mouth unless I know what is happening. The NPD can take a lesson from Mama Jazzy :)

Your Mom is a smart woman. Those are wise words and one of my all-time favorite expressions. To paraphrase it, as taken from the film Glengarry Glen Ross about underhanded real estate salesmen: "Never open your mouth 'til you know what the shot is."

Doofus1
12-02-2004, 12:20 PM
5, I agree. Instictively, you want Bronson to show up and kill the mugger that's pistol whipping the little old lady, but it is never that clean. Lining up 4 thieves and shooting them in the back of the head is just plain murder and seems too much like the KGB has taken over. Besides, what will it be next time--4 victims that just wrote letters to the editor complaining about alleged illegal drugs, prostitution and gambling going on at a local bar that get capped?

myhomenewark
12-02-2004, 01:53 PM
The first thing I thought when I read the article is yeah, good, you live by the gun, you die by the gun.


I try to understand the incomprehensible.

I do understand, being the progressive that I am, the history of this nation and how we aid and abet many urban ills through neglect and deprivation.

I try to wrap my mind around racial/class divisions and the way whole groups of people are in untenable situations from racism's legacy.

I realize that it is folly to expect those who don't really believe in a better future to rise up and be productive citizens on jobs, say, slinging hot dogs with no benefits and supposedly looking upon such a dead-end job as a godsend to something better.

Yes, I really am an advocate for those who American-style capitalism, racism, sexism, and all the other -isms have trampled on or left to diminished expectations.

But if you inflict terror on an individual by pointing a gun, you forfeit all sympathy from me.

That is my line drawn.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/02/nyregion/02newark.html


http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-7/110196961016410.xml

I'm just sorry that such scum raise Newark's homicide rate. When you pull a gun and terrorize someone, you should go to jail for a long, long time.

I have sympathy for the vigilante, but I don't condone that either.

jmax
12-02-2004, 04:27 PM
Is that this group was a bunch of drugged out idiots. I mean-- you rob a bar-- then go back after just one month and put down a few beers. I mean-- they didn't just rob the owners-- they robbed the patrons!!!

As far as I'm concerned-- the world (and their neighborhood) is better off without these yahoos.

That being said-- resorting to violence should never be the answer. However-- how long does anyone on this board think it would've taken to get the police down to the bar to "investigate?"

counterattack
12-02-2004, 04:53 PM
This may actually send a message to those who continue to terrorize our streets. Criminals at some point need to understand that you can only get away with your actions for so long before someone get's tired of it and gets a gun and take action on their own. who here would not defend themselves for all they knew they came back to rob the place again. I think even the ledger reported that one of them had a ski mask on when he was killed.

p.s. Hey 5 why am I still considered a new member?

5Reasons
12-02-2004, 05:01 PM
I really don't control this site. I am JUST A CONTRIBUTOR like you.

jazzyken
12-02-2004, 05:08 PM
Okay, did I miss something here... where does it say that the killers were vigilantes? Whether or not they robbed the bar or not does not justify the execution. I am one to say "An Eye for An Eye" but this is not the case. Now no one knows at this point if they were executed b/c of their gand affiliation or drugs or robbing the bar. The first article said they were frequent visitors of the bar and they were "good" kids that did not start trouble. Now they are these gang banging hoodlums that robbed and rolled with gangs. There is a problem somewhere.

black4rob2
12-02-2004, 06:14 PM
That's primarily why I've been silent thus far on this issue.
The very first article had people praising them as coming to the bar and playing pool often....and in a couple of days they are "was a dedicated drug dealer and armed robber"... I mean you are talking about being on the complete opposite side of the spectrum in a matter of days.

Irregardless of their characters, their motives, or intent....It is not our duty to take another human life at will....Even if it was revenge for getting robbed previuosly...Why didn't they robbed them back...

I don't know...Something doesn't make sense to me...
It could be the city just trying to put some closure to unnecessary publicity, it could be the Star Ledger at its best AGAIN...But we will never know that now for sure, because the ones who could answer us are dead...

black4rob2
12-02-2004, 06:20 PM
This may actually send a message to those who continue to terrorize our streets. Criminals at some point need to understand that you can only get away with your actions for so long before someone get's tired of it and gets a gun and take action on their own. who here would not defend themselves for all they knew they came back to rob the place again. I think even the ledger reported that one of them had a ski mask on when he was killed.

p.s. Hey 5 why am I still considered a new member?

#9 10-13-2004, 08:01 PM
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ProSouth
12-03-2004, 12:53 AM
True Vigilantism Works....Many of the most serious crimes in our streets would diminish greatly if they knew the victims or their families would retaliate. Most of these criminals prey on the innocent because they have no fear of retribution from them, and they know the law is slow and that the odd are that they would beat the case anyway if arrested.
I like Islamic justice. Murder someones husband, son, daughter, family member and their family is allowed to murder you.

If these 4 truly did rob patrons of that bar earlier at an earlier date, they got what they got especially if the victims handed out this justice.

Quote from the movie Training Day:

Jake Hoyt: That's street justice.
Alonzo Harris: What's wrong with street justice?
Jake Hoyt: So we just let the animals kill themselves?
Alonzo Harris: God willing. **** 'em, and everybody that looks like 'em.


Great quote.

Miss Tam-Tam
12-03-2004, 02:53 AM
From the NYTimes story: <<Also with them last Thursday night was Jarmeil's older brother, Kyhron Ward, a convicted felon but a man neighbors said was trying to turn his life around. Kyhron Ward was not involved with the robbery, the police said, though friends said he often stuck close to his brother.>>

In a perfect world, the perps get their due and no one else gets hurt. But in full-scale retribution, sometimes those not directly involved get blood splashed upon them. Violence begats violence. In this case, the perfect "payback" would have been to rob the perps at gunpoint, not pop them in the back of the head execution style. The police need to stay on top of this case and the neighborhood where the incident occurred. Payback is a b*t*h, but when does it stop paying back? I have a nagging question: Were not the Newark police in the process of investigating the initial robbery of the bar which led to the executions? Or did they just treat it as another bar hit and shrug their shoulders? Sometimes the lack of responsive law enforcement can lead to street justice. Since there were so many allegedly involved in the initial bar robbery, it wouldn't have been an impossible case for detectives to solve. Get a group of penny ante thugs to commit a crime together, and at least one of them almost always shoot off their lip about it. All you need is for one to flip, and you've got your case. I remember I used to go roller skating in that neighborhood at the old Twin Cities rink. And, yes, Dayton Street was a tough neighborhood even back in the day. But today the people are even too frightened to go to the church where the bodies were found.

Miss Tam-Tam
12-03-2004, 03:02 AM
Quote from the movie Training Day:

Jake Hoyt: That's street justice.
Alonzo Harris: What's wrong with street justice?
Jake Hoyt: So we just let the animals kill themselves?
Alonzo Harris: God willing. **** 'em, and everybody that looks like 'em.Great quote.

One of my favs. Hoyt's kitchen table scene with the Latino gang members -- one of the best. Macy Gray a real standout.

ProSouth
12-03-2004, 07:39 AM
Miss Tam-Tam:

There is no true justice in our society. Someone (God forbid) kills a family member and it is more likely than not that they will live (if caught) and be out of prison (if convicted) in 10-15 years. If the murder takes place in Essex County it is even less likely that there will be a conviction. Is that justice?? And let's truly understand why many of these crimes take place in the first place...because the criminal really believes (based upon what they experience on the streets everyday) that they are going to get away with the crime. Many of us here comment on crimes that are reported in the media, but there are many crimes that are not reported that go unsolved. Newark Police homicide and Essex County Prosecutor's Office homicide divisions DO NOT have a great track record of solving murders in Newark. Now that's a media story. The police are NOT on their game. Should a family who has lost a loved one suffer because the prosecutor prosecuting the case loses because he or she is not as good as the defense attorney? I know that would not sit well with me? This is not justice. Justice is suppose to be blind... Actually justice is Deaf, Dumb and on life support and has been so for as long as I can remember.
There are millions of example why street justice works in our community.
Mr. Cooper who owns Cooper's Deli/Liquor Stores in Newark got robbed at gunpoint twice. Once at his South Orange Avenue location and the last time at his Orange Street location. The first time on South Orange Ave, he shot at the guys as they were supposedly running away ;) with a registered weapon in his parking lot ;) and did not hit the robbers. The second robbery was on Orange St. where 2 guys robbed him with a gun and Mr. Cooper shot and killed one of them. Is that not justice? Hell Yea!!! But here comes the law, our great protectors charging Mr. Cooper with weapons offenses. Now let's talk about what message this incident sent: 1.) Don't f**k with the owner of Cooper's because he will murder your ass and 2.) If you are a law abiding citizen and someone tries to rob or murder with a deadly weapon don't defend yourself. I would much rather have the first message go out. I grew up in the South Ward at a time when the old timers would put one in you quick if you tried to steal their car or rob their house. Try and steal their rides, they'd open fire on your butt from a second story window with their .38. These old cats like my father from down south would light your ass up without thinking about it especially if you did something to their son or daughter, ect. Mess with someone's daughter and the men in the family would get together, find you and open a can of street justice on your behind and worry about the law later. (Ask Carl Sharif :D ) The outcome of that was that people on the block, especially the criminals, knew who to mess with and not to mess with. If there was confidence in the law to mede out some justice, vigilantism or street justice would not be necessary.
Let's understand what this society's form of justice says we are suppose to do: You come home to find a burglar going through your stuff. The burglar shoots at you and starts to run away, you get your legally registered handgun and shoot the fleeing burglar in the back on your front steps. Guess who's getting charged with a crime for protecting your family? You are. We are suppose to be sitting ducks and let the law handle it. The same law who can't even convict murderers with several eyewitnesses because the witnesses recant out of having more fear of the criminal than faith in the justice system. They know. When are we going to get it.

ProSouth
12-03-2004, 08:11 AM
More confusion.....But check out how the business owners in the neighborhood have no confidence in the police or that the police are even telling the truth. This is the rep of the NPD amongst law abiding business owners.

http://nj.com/news/ledger/essex/index.ssf?/base/news-6/110205430571650.xml

JoefromPGH
12-03-2004, 08:51 AM
"I have sympathy for the vigilante, but I don't condone that either"

Its one thing to be vigilant...and I actually support citizen vigilism to some degree as a way to clense out the criminal element. But....YOU CAN"T TAKE JUSTICE INTO YOUR OWN HANDS. Catching the crooks is one thing and maybe giving them a good lickin might even be ok.....but murder? No way....even Hamurabi wouldn't have agreed with that. Let the legal system take care of justice. If not, the streets of our cities will become no better than the streets in Baghdad.

5Reasons
12-03-2004, 09:11 AM
Nice work Jazz for immediately pointing out the fact that there were inconsistencies in the story. The Fox Ledger and NPD STRIKE AGAIN!!!

Here are the facts: 3 of the 4 killed DID have criminal records and at least one was affiliated with the Bloods. So, although some may have considered them "nice people", they clearly weren't always nice.

ProSouth
12-03-2004, 09:36 AM
Joe:
But let's understand the world we as Newarkers live in. We live in a world where gang members shoot at the so called protectors of our society, cops. They do not fear anything and prison is a rites of passage for them. In addition, this society is doing nothing to change this criminal culture. Their focus is one enforcement. To the violent criminal we are sitting ducks. An eye for an eye works. Whether we want to admit it or not it works in other countries. It works in countries that we call barbaric and beneath us. All the while they can boast a much less murder, rape, robbery rate than us. It is not justice to let a murderer live in prison while the person he murdered is dead forever. No way. I guarantee you this, make it lawful for law abiding citizens to own and carry firearms and the crime rate would drop. Make it known that the State will not prosecute law abiding citizens who shoot violent criminals and the crime rate would drop. Publically beat the hell out of several drug dealers dealing on a block and the word would get around.
There is not true justice in the justice system. It is but a system with a revolving door policy and we are the ones suffering because of it.

BTW: Catching a crook is not as easy as it sounds. The crook is not going to go willingly. He might have to be "coerced". How far should the citizens take it? If the criminal pulls a gun what should the citizens do, say o.k. crook, you win?
I understand that there is plenty that could go wrong regarding vigilantism, but if righteous should used as an example to future criminals.

jazzyken
12-03-2004, 09:39 AM
As I read responses to this articles in the SL I still have a problem with calling the killers "vigilantes". Vigilantes must have been harmed in some way, either by family being murdered or harmed or themselves being physically harmed. This is not the work of vigilantes. This was the work of some people (had to be more than 3-4 killers) sending a message to the community or rival gangs or whatever. This was planned!!!
My brother was murdered in 1986 in broad daylight on a major street at 7:30 in the morning by 3 men who planned to kill him. The NPD never solved the case :mad:
As a vigilante, I would have hunted the guys down one by one and killed them where they stood. So called street justice.
As a killer, I would have kidnapped the individuals, take them to a vacant lot and blew their heads off one by one. Execution style.
BTW, I was only 11 years old at the time so do not think I could have truly committed murder :D
This was a well planned and well executed (forgive my pun) murder.

5Reasons
12-03-2004, 10:36 AM
South,

You are hitting on the nail on the head and you are creeping towards this idea that is bound to break out in one of these hoods. In Atlanta, you had citizens paying OTHER citizens to KILL drug dealers to improve the quality of life. At some point, in one of these hoods, there's just going to be a mass uprising against the violent drug-driven MINORITY that dominate the streets. We're approaching that breaking point were people are willing to take the law into their own hands. The only thing that is missing is a trigger event. And trust me, once the first internal uprising against the Drug Minority occurs, you will see copycats all over.

In the end, I'm not exactly sure why drug dealing has maintained such a stranglehold on the community. In the latest studies I've read, ONLY THE TOP LAYER (usually less than 5) make between $50,000 and $125,000 per year in the drug trade. The second lawyer of each cartel barely earn $10 per hour and that's considered about what they would earn in the general market. And the lowest, street level dealer that's pushing the product, BARELY makes more than minimum wage. Because of their low educational attainment levels and the surplus supply of human resources, there's always downward pressure to keep the street-level dealers 'earnings' low. Now when you factor in all of the risks and all of the expenses of having to deal with the judicial system, the whole proposition of drugs doesn't make sense for most involved. Hence, this is YET ANOTHER example of people engaging in behavior that is NOT within their own best economic self-interest.

Also note: In most studies in urban areas, they have found that MORE THAN 1 in 6 black males had some dealings with street-level drugs (large employer); however, they also found that NEARLY 2/3rds of drug dealers ALSO HAD LEGITIMATE JOBS (and hence the dealing was used to supplement their income).

At some point, this industry has to be broken up and we have to get control. This climate and this culture cannot last.

ProSouth
12-03-2004, 11:01 AM
5,

And I don't see the racist police culture solving this problem at all for us either. There will always be a greedy cop or politician with this mentality:

Godfather quote (Yall see I like movies):

"I, too, don't believe in drugs. For years I paid my people extra to stay away from that sort of stuff, but someone comes along saying, "I've got powders where if you put up a three to four thousand dollar investment, you can make fifty thousand distributing," then there is no way to resist it. I want to keep it respectable. I DON'T WANT IT NEAR SCHOOLS, I DON'T WANT IT SOLD TO CHILDREN! In my city, we'd keep the traffic in the Dark People, the Coloreds - they're animals anyway; so let them lose their souls."

For money they will look the other way. We need to deal with this ourselves. I am not a fan of the police culture. We have relied on them too long and they do not move with a righteous hand. They are more concerned about their union contracts and suburban lifestyles. This will not stop until the people regulate this problem. You are exactly right. All that is needed is one incident of vigilantism and it will catch on like wild fire.

jazzyken
12-03-2004, 11:12 AM
Drug dealers BELIEVE they are making money...

They see the initial hundred dollars in a day or whatever they make and think they are doing something. They have to keep flipping their money to net any profit. In reality it is unprofitable to make real money (not speaking from experience but have other associates besides you guys :p . I know half of the cats on High st. and they have been on that street since I was 2 years old. They still live at home with mom's and drive raggedy cars. No insurance. No license. 5-10 kids on welfare. There is no benefit to drug dealing.
They are better off at Mickey D's or Wendy's. At least they will have benefits :)

black4rob2
12-03-2004, 12:52 PM
Pro...I'm going to have to disagree with you to an extent....

In this particular case with the resturant being robbed...I don't believe that it justifed the alleged robbers being executed...
Now personally, if i was robbed and had the opportunity to confront that person who robbed again...i would kick his ass, but i wouldn't kill the guy...

You also spoke about defending your self and bearing arms...I can agree with that, because you are actually defending yourself in the moment as oppose to looking for the perps after the incident has already transpired...
At that point when you begin to look and hunt down these guys it is consiparacy where as before it was merely self-defense.

Jazzy...I think the problem with street level drug dealers is that they are not to bright....No offense to anyone....

But contrary to belief...they can make a lot of money on those corners. But of course they want platinum fronts....platinum chains....and a brand new Whitey every single motherf*@#! day.

To be perfectly honest with you I can actually sympathize with someone who sells drugs because he sees no other way for him to take care of his family and put food on the table, or keep the heat and light on in the house, but it is those stupid, greedy characters that really get to me....

They sell drugs because it looks cool, or they want dem brand new nikes that came out tomorrow

Trust me...I speak from experience...

Closing Remarks:

I don't think we should take justice into our own hands.

If those four did rob the joint...they did not deserve to get killed...

NPD had a lot of work to do within themselves...

Jazzy and John James are Vigilantes!!!

J. Sharpe James, J.D.
12-03-2004, 01:45 PM
Jazzy and I would gladly RELIEVE you of your sneakers! :D

Portugalian
12-05-2004, 11:23 AM
If it was a vigilante..it would have to be more than 1..it takes a lot to get four people to lay face down on the the floor.

Another thing..why was one of the Ward brothers wearing a ski mask?