Pursuit Policy

[keytocity]

The biggest debate of all. But lets face it.

If you going to give a cop a gun, you should let him decide if it is feasible to pursue a vehicle.

The majority of weapons offenders go out and drink, and then drive around and shoot people.

If the cops could pursue again, (without fear of suspension for being cops and doing there jobs) and had vehicles like re-enforced trucks like the county police unit has, they could stop, and arrest the offenders.

The rest is on the courts.

Right now the PD is on the cleanup after the fact stage, taping up crime scenes, and not to aggressive for fear of retribution on them for doing the job they WANT to do.

Stop blaming the police for being the police.
Start blaming the offenders and fully prosecuting them..........

[SkaMan]

yeah but do not forget testosterone is a powerful drug by itself. a testosterone-high cop behind the wheel of a cruiser is just as deadly a force as the stupid punk behind the wheel of a stolen number.
pursuit is fine but police have to know when to shut it down. let me ask you?

a father and son and driving down the road about to pass through an intersection, they have a green light. Same time, coming in the opposite direction is a 15 year old in a stolen number doing 80 mph with police in hot pursuit. the kid makes it through the intersection just ahead of the father and son, the police do not. they slam into the side of the car killing both father and son.

what do you say to the mother/wife waiting at home?

sorry? ops? better luck next time? my bad?

what do you say?

[VeryProudNewarker77]

yeah but do not forget testosterone is a powerful drug by itself. a testosterone-high cop behind the wheel of a cruiser is just as deadly a force as the stupid punk behind the wheel of a stolen number.
pursuit is fine but police have to know when to shut it down. let me ask you?

a father and son and driving down the road about to pass through an intersection, they have a green light. Same time, coming in the opposite direction is a 15 year old in a stolen number doing 80 mph with police in hot pursuit. the kid makes it through the intersection just ahead of the father and son, the police do not. they slam into the side of the car killing both father and son.

what do you say to the mother/wife waiting at home?

sorry? ops? better luck next time? my bad?

what do you say?

Why is it though that Newark is the only municipality in the State that I know of with this pursuit policy?

It's because of that policy that I was laughing my ass off watching tv. I'm watching one of those police-chase videos on TV and they actually had one from Newark. It was the only piece that they showed in that episode in which they guys got away in a stolen car. Everyone else got done in by pit-maneuvers, spikes ahead of the car....but these guys are just behind these kids and let them go because of the anti-pursuit policy (which was the actual reason they gave on that show).

It's f--king sad.

[John360]

What do you say to the mother/wife waiting at home?

sorry? ops? better luck next time? my bad?

what do you say?

What do you say to the family of the senior citizen that punk runs down the next time he decides to jack a car, knowing the cop can't persue? :(

[SkaMan]

i understand what you are saying. i am not fully against pursuit. but you did not answer the question i asked.

what do you say??????? if you don't have an answer that is ok.

[John360]

what do you say??????? if you don't have an answer that is ok.

I wouldn't have to say anything. I'm not a cop.

IMHO telling a wife her husband and kid were accidentally killed in a police chase is a lot better than telling the senior citizen's family that they died senslessly because the police weren't able to their job.

[SkaMan]

I wouldn't have to say anything. I'm not a cop.

IMHO telling a wife her husband and kid were accidentally killed in a police chase is a lot better than telling the senior citizen's family that they died senslessly because the police weren't able to their job.

sorry. i was not talking to you, i was talking to VeryProudNewarker77. did not see your post.

since you are in, please read my post again. i am not against pursuit. i just think that at times testosterone outweighs commonsense and people get killed anyway.

what does your IMHO mean?

[Doofus1]

IMHO, in my humble opinion.

A real pursuit policy will only work as intended if NPD receives constant training in pursuit driving and decision making. Somehow, I doubt that is something officers receive on an annual or semi-annual basis.

[SkaMan]

IMHO, in my humble opinion.

A real pursuit policy will only work as intended if NPD receives constant training in pursuit driving and decision making. Somehow, I doubt that is something officers receive on an annual or semi-annual basis.

good response. i agree with you. pursuit is fine, training and retraining vitally important.

[VeryProudNewarker77]

i understand what you are saying. i am not fully against pursuit. but you did not answer the question i asked.

what do you say??????? if you don't have an answer that is ok.

My apologies, it wasn't clear if you were asking me or John. In any event, listen mistakes happen. I can take that same scenario and involve a firearm that was fired at a suspect and the cop's bullet hit an innocent civilian. Now I'm sure there are procedures in place to only use your weapon and to minimize civilian casualties but hey it would depend on the circumstances involved. If the suspect is shooting away at everyone/everything in cite and a cop uses his weapon and kills a civilian, was the cop wrong? Same thing with a pursuit. Otherwise what good is carrying a weapon for the police officer?

[Thewifeofapopo]

My apologies, it wasn't clear if you were asking me or John. In any event, listen mistakes happen. I can take that same scenario and involve a firearm that was fired at a suspect and the cop's bullet hit an innocent civilian. Now I'm sure there are procedures in place to only use your weapon and to minimize civilian casualties but hey it would depend on the circumstances involved. If the suspect is shooting away at everyone/everything in cite and a cop uses his weapon and kills a civilian, was the cop wrong? Same thing with a pursuit. Otherwise what good is carrying a weapon for the police officer?



Some people can't do both! Sorry!

[Make Newark Clean]

My apologies, it wasn't clear if you were asking me or John. In any event, listen mistakes happen. I can take that same scenario and involve a firearm that was fired at a suspect and the cop's bullet hit an innocent civilian. Now I'm sure there are procedures in place to only use your weapon and to minimize civilian casualties but hey it would depend on the circumstances involved. If the suspect is shooting away at everyone/everything in cite and a cop uses his weapon and kills a civilian, was the cop wrong? Same thing with a pursuit. Otherwise what good is carrying a weapon for the police officer?

A stolen car vs. a life? You have to err on side of life.

Training is important.

[VeryProudNewarker77]

A stolen car vs. a life? You have to err on side of life.

Training is important.

I understand that, but why is Newark the only city in the state with this policy? If there are other municipalities with this policy, please prove me wrong? A policy like this only strengthen the resolve of the criminal.

[VeryProudNewarker77]

Some people can't do both! Sorry!

What about walking and chewing gum at the same time? :rolleyes:

[Make Newark Clean]

I understand that, but why is Newark the only city in the state with this policy? If there are other municipalities with this policy, please prove me wrong? A policy like this only strengthen the resolve of the criminal.

Newark is the second smallest large city in the country (Jersey City is the first). Maybe it's a decision based on population density and narrow streets? Most of our city's streets are not very wide. Do New York police chase cars through residential areas?

I wouldn't want to hamstring a well-trained officer from making a decision on when to pursue. But a stolen car can be collected after the fact. A dead innocent bystander is a very real possibility in these circumstances. It was the reason the ban was instituted.

P.S. I though the ban was modified about a year back to be less restrictive. Let me do some research.

[Make Newark Clean]

Here's a story from 1992 in the NY Times (www.nytimes.com)about car-chase policies and their impacts:

NATIONAL DESK


Alarmed by Deaths in Car Chases, Police Curb High-Speed Pursuits
By SETH MYDANS (NYT) 1770 words
Published: December 26, 1992


Increasingly alarmed by high-speed pursuits that are killing hundreds of people every year, police departments around the country, as well as state and Federal lawmakers, are clamping down on the wild, Hollywood-style chases that sometimes involve caravans of speeding cruisers.

Their efforts are meeting resistance from some officers who say criminals must be given the message that they will always be pursued. And limits on high-speed chases also challenge what some experts say is an aggressive, get-your-man ethos in police departments.

"The adrenaline is feeding a macho thing where the officer is trying to get the bad guy, and it becomes a battle between the suspect and the officer," said Michael Murphy, the police commander in Mukilteo, a small town north of Seattle. Experts See Rising Danger

Though there are few reliable nationwide figures to show whether more people are dying in police pursuits, experts say increasingly congested streets and increasingly desperate criminals have added to the dangers for the police as well as criminals and bystanders.

About 1 percent of all high-speed chases end in a death, said Geoffrey Alpert, a professor at the University of South Carolina and a leading expert on the issue. States and communities acting to reduce these risks have improved training, set limits on how chases can be conducted and increased penalties for people fleeing the police.

Lawmakers and police departments have been nudged into action by a combination of larger legal settlements for innocent victims in chases, by recent court rulings in Texas and Florida that have held police departments responsible for chase injuries, and by a perception that the chases have grown deadlier.

The issue has caused particular concern here in California, where the state highway patrol has one of the nation's most aggressive pursuit policies. In one two-week period in November, eight pursuits by various police agencies in Southern California ended in death, three of them within a five-hour period on Nov. 22. All but 2 of the 10 people killed were bystanders.

The crashes rekindled public anger that flared last summer when a car being chased by United States Border Patrol agents crashed at a school crossing in the town of Temecula, Calif., killing six people, including four teen-age students.

Concern has grown within police departments themselves over the hazards of pursuits. "In one precinct, about 9 or 10 months ago, I had 10 officers out injured and five vehicles totaled," said William R. Celester, the chief of police in Newark. States Cracking Down

These actions are typical of the steps being taken to curtail such damage:

*A new Illinois law requires officers to receive specialized training in pursuits and their alternatives. The Virginia State Police added similar training last year.

*After seven deaths in police chases in 1991, the City Council in Washington imposed a 90-day moratorium and then the police department limited chases to felonies committed by someone considered dangerous. This month Montgomery County, Md., banned pursuits across county lines unless a violent felony has been committed.

*New Jersey recently raised penalties for eluding the police. In Utah, where police chases took three lives last year and three more this year, legislators are drafting a law to make fleeing from an officer a felony.

United States Representative Byron L. Dorgan, Democrat of North Dakota, whose mother was killed by a fleeing car six years ago, introduced a bill last year that would require states to criminalize flight from a police officer. He plans to file a new bill when he takes office next year as a Senator. Current Penalties Light

Under most current laws, a driver who flees the police usually faces virtually no additional punishment, even if a pursuing officer or bystander is killed.

"In many jurisdictions the penalty for fleeing and eluding is minimal, and also in many cases the charge of fleeing and eluding is dropped," Mr. Alpert said.

In growing numbers, police departments from Seattle to San Antonio to Skokie, Ill., are instituting their own restrictions on chases.

"I think the trend across the country is that police departments are narrowing the parameters of discretion that allow officers to engage in chases," said Hubert Williams, president of the Police Foundation, a private research organization based in Washington.

Various guidelines limit the numbers of cars that can be involved, require radio contact with supervisors, bar pursuits for such minor violations as shoplifting or running a red light, for example, and forbid intentional collisions or shooting at fleeing cars. A Leash on Dirty Harry

"You can't ram a guy like you see Gene Hackman do it on T.V.," said John Orso, Chief of the 100-officer police department in Fort Lee, N.J.

"We don't shoot out the tires just because Dirty Harry does it," said John Leggio, a spokesman for the Houston Police Department.

In recent years, Baltimore, a city of narrow and congested streets, has set the standard with its uncompromising policy: high-speed chases are forbidden and officers are never to exceed the posted speed limit by more than 10 miles an hour. The city relies on its fleet of five helicopters instead of on police cruisers to pursue fleeing cars.

Asked if officers regretted sometimes being forced to watch a suspected felon drive away, Sam Ringgold, director of public affairs for the Baltimore Police Department, said, "Naw, because you get 'em down the road."

But Chief Ernest A. Williams of Trenton said, "We still have to worry about some of our young officers, the macho guys, the you-can't-run-from-me type." Safety Versus Lawlessness

Strict guidelines have proved the best medicine for young officers like these, said Mr. Leggio in Houston. "That, for the first time, removes the stigma from fellow officers," he said. "We've gotten the egos out of it."

Nevertheless, restrictions have touched off an emotional debate over the balance between public safety and law enforcement, between the need to protect bystanders and a perceived threat of widespread lawlessness if fleeing criminals are allowed to evade arrest.

"It's not worth it to take a life, like my son's life, for a bad license plate or a stolen car," said Una Corley Groves, whose son was killed in Washington four years ago when he was hit by a Federal Parks Police cruiser that sped through a red light in pursuit of a driver who had just run the light. "Just because they have a car and a gun and a badge and lights and sirens doesn't mean they can ignore the law."

The Groves family sued after the accident, and Judge Stanley Sporkin of Federal District Court in Washington awarded $1.25 million in damages last year.

"There is no doubt that a number of traffic regulations should be waived when an emergency vehicle needs to make its way through the streets to protect lives," Judge Sporkin said in making his ruling. "But the police must remember that traffic regulations themselves exist to protect lives, and they cannot be hastily ignored when police witness a minor infraction." Prediction of Anarchy

On the other side of the debate, Maury Hannigan, Commissioner of the California Highway Patrol, argued in an interview that letting fleeing suspects, including suspected drunk drivers, simply drive away would invite anarchy and greatly increase the threat of highway accidents.

"It's no different than waging a war," he said. "There are some inherent risks. There are going to be losses, unfortunately. This is a battle where we are trying to bring crime to a halt."

The Commissioner continued: "What some people in the public are saying is, 'If you light him up and he takes off, shut down and let him go.' I don't think the public would want to live with that. The number of deaths and injuries attributable to police pursuits are minuscule compared to the overall deaths that would result if you did not allow the police to engage in pursuits."

Capt. Thomas W. Shook, commander of the Richmond Police Department, said there was an unhealthy trend in the nation of blaming the police when tough tactics were used. "We in society are losing the battle between anarchy and civilization," he said. About 300 Deaths a Year

Experts say there are few national figures on police pursuits. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration figures, based on reports from police departments, show that 305 people died in pursuits in 1991.

Of these deaths, 250 were reported to be occupants of fleeing vehicles, 46 were third-party victims in uninvolved vehicles, four were occupants of police vehicles and five were pedestrians.

A report released this summer by Illinois State University, where researchers examined both local and national data, estimated that more than 50,000 police pursuits took place across the country each year, causing more than 20,000 injuries. The study counts all chases, without regard to speed.

An author of the study, L. Edward Wells, an associate professor of criminal justice sciences, said that well over half the pursuits were initiated for traffic violations and that less than 30 percent were prompted by felonies. Police Keeping Tallies

As concern over pursuits has risen, more departments have begun keeping records, and these records show pursuit to be dangerous. In the first 10 months of this year, for example, San Jose officers were involved in 63 vehicle pursuits, resulting in 23 accidents.

The Virginia State Police began compiling statistics on pursuits last year and found that in 99 of the 265 pursuits, or 37 percent, the result was a wreck by the trooper, the suspect or both. In 108 pursuits, or 41 percent, speeds exceeded the posted limit by 50 miles an hour or more.

Only 37 of the suspects in the Virginia pursuits last year escaped; pursuits were terminated for safety reasons by the troopers or their supervisors in just 10 cases.

Last year for the first time Virginia troopers were given training in how to put safety first and break off a chase, said Sgt. Jeff W. Howard, chief driving instructor at the Virginia State Driving Academy.

"Most of the young people coming into law enforcement think that things happen like on TV or in the movies: the good guys chase the bad guys and the good guys win," Sergeant Howard said. "But you have to look at the whole society. Are you causing a larger problem by chasing? A motor vehicle is a deadlier weapon than a gun. There's no motor vehicle code penalty that calls for life in a wheelchair."



Photos: Police departments and state and Federal lawmakers around the country are cutting down on high-speed car chases because of the potential danger for the police, criminals and bystanders. Six people were killed in June when a car crashed while fleeing Border Patrol agents in Temecula, Calif. (Tony Doubek/The San Diego Union-Tribune); "It's not worth it to take a life, like my son's life, for a bad license plate or a stolen car," said Una Corley Groves, whose son was killed in Washington in 1988 when he was hit by a Federal Parks Police car that sped through a red light in pursuit of a driver who had just run the light. (Susan Greenwood for The New York Times)(pg. 7)

[Make Newark Clean]

From the New York Times (www.nytimes.com) Archive. From Times Select (http://select.nytimes.com/pages/timesselect/index.html).

NEW JERSEY WEEKLY DESK


JERSEY;When a Police Car Is a Lethal Weapon
By JOE SHARKEY (NYT) 825 words
Published: July 7, 1996

EIGHT years ago, when Gerald W. LaCrosse first got involved in the thorny issue of police chases, his motive was just neighborly concern.
In May 1988, a woman who lived near him in Ocean County was killed with her baby when a drunken driver fleeing the police hit her car. Three days later, a former classmate of his daughter died, her car broadsided by a driver being pursued by the police for a traffic violation.

Three local people killed in three days," Mr. LaCrosse said the other day at his home in Beachwood, a quiet town tucked in the woods south of Toms River. "That hit close to home, so I started researching police pursuits." He soon concluded that pursuits, and casualties, were rapidly increasing across the country.

"Then, six months later, there was another chase," he recalled. A driver pulled over for a broken taillight sped away. The ensuing chase, reaching speeds of 90 m.p.h., ended at an intersection in Toms River, when the suspect smashed into a car, instantly killing the driver, a young woman on her way home from visiting a friend.

"Two o'clock in the morning, we got the knock on the door that every parent secretly dreads," Mr. LaCrosse said, tears brimming in his eyes. "The victim was our daughter, Desere."

A tragedy like that can create a zealot. Instead, the soft-spoken Mr. LaCrosse formed a group called the Desere Foundation and educated himself as a nationally recognized authority who speaks at law-enforcement seminars around the country about tougher regulations and training for one of the toughest decisions a police officer routinely faces: whether to pursue a fleeing suspect, and at what potential cost and benefit.

"My contention is that vehicular pursuit is the last unregulated weapon in a police officer's arsenal," said Mr. LaCrosse, who is a Borough Councilman in Beachwood. In many states, he said, officers receive less training -- and face fewer sanctions -- on using pursuits than on using a nightstick.

The subject of police chases is especially timely because of two recent pursuit-related deaths. Three weeks ago, a Bergen County teacher, Stephanie Carroll, 38, was killed when a suspected purse snatcher in a stolen car rammed her Chevrolet while being chased by the police. Less than a month earlier, a New Jersey state trooper, Francis J. Bellaran, 32, died after crashing his patrol car on the Garden State Parkway while chasing a suspected motorcycle thief at speeds in excess of 100 m.p.h. In both cases, the authorities said the police had acted in compliance with strict 1993 state guidelines, which say that an officer must balance the "obligation to protect life" against his or her "sworn duty" to apprehend dangerous suspects, including the drunks and car thieves who account for most pursuits. Pursuit only over a traffic violation is no longer permitted.

"Jersey's guidelines are the best in the country," Mr. LaCrosse said. Still, in 19 of the 21 New Jersey counties reporting statistics to the state Attorney General's office for 1995, five people were killed and 251 injured in 1,237 pursuits. And those figures understate the problem because they don't include Essex County, which has by far the most chases. In 1994, for example, Essex County police agencies, including Newark's, initiated 738 pursuits -- about 40 percent of the state total -- with 122 injuries, none fatal.

In 1994, densely congested New Jersey ranked 22d among the states in pursuit fatalities, which Federal statistics put at 388 nationally. (Mr. LaCrosse and other critics believe the figure is much higher because many departments are lax in reporting pursuits).

California ranked first in 1994, with 60 reported fatalities from more than 5,000 pursuits. Last month, the Southern California chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union issued a study that warned of an "epidemic of police pursuits" called for tough new regulations. For its part, the California Highway Patrol called it "dangerously simplistic" to put more restrictions on the police in hot pursuit and noted that the suspect is by far the most likely to be hurt in a chase.

Mr. LaCrosse believes that Hollywood is partly to blame for instilling attitudes in some young men, both pursuer and pursued, that a high-speed chase is a lark. "You can't go to an action adventure movie without seeing some kind of a chase. The problem is they never show an innocent person getting killed," he said.

He argues that chases are always dangerous. Traffic violations are never good reasons to chase, even when they result in arrests for other crimes. Nor are stolen cars, he says.

"You can replace a stolen car," he said. "You can't replace an innocent child."




Drawing.

[VeryProudNewarker77]

1) If a cop pulls me over for running a red light, I can simply speed like a bat out of hell and hope he didn't get my plate because hey, if it's for a traffic violation, he can't pursue (yeah right..... ;) )

2) If you want to commit a crime, if you're driving a real fast car you can probably get away because hey, cops want to value life and put that above his/her "sworn duty" to enforce the law.

Friggin liberals.....

[Make Newark Clean]

My apologies, it wasn't clear if you were asking me or John. In any event, listen mistakes happen. I can take that same scenario and involve a firearm that was fired at a suspect and the cop's bullet hit an innocent civilian. Now I'm sure there are procedures in place to only use your weapon and to minimize civilian casualties but hey it would depend on the circumstances involved. If the suspect is shooting away at everyone/everything in cite and a cop uses his weapon and kills a civilian, was the cop wrong? Same thing with a pursuit. Otherwise what good is carrying a weapon for the police officer?

Are you willing to lay down YOUR life so that police can pursue a stolen vehicle? I'm not, nor am I willing to do so for my loved ones, for a car. Let them go speeding down the streets of Stanhope, not here in Newark.

The only thing that makes these kids who steal cars more dangerous is when they think that they can outdrive pursuing police. Although no big fan of the noise, I would prefer a helicopter chase a stolen car instead. Didn't Newark just get a helicopter?

Conservatives think that there are always easy answers. There are, but they're usually WRONG and their "answers" only serve some biased view.

[VeryProudNewarker77]

Are you willing to lay down YOUR life so that police can pursue a stolen vehicle? I'm not, nor am I willing to do so for my loved ones, for a car. Let them go speeding down the streets of Stanhope, not here in Newark.

The only thing that makes these kids who steal cars more dangerous is when they think that they can outdrive pursuing police. Although no big fan of the noise, I would prefer a helicopter chase a stolen car instead. Didn't Newark just get a helicopter?

Conservatives think that there are always easy answers. There are, but they're usually WRONG and their "answers" only serve some biased view.

Make, I always thought liberals had the easy answers and they too were usually wrong. I am dead-smack in the middle....with my views tending to go slightly more right than left. (I did vote for Clinton, Mcgayvey and Corzine in recent memory so give me some credit).

I would not trade my life for a stolen car, nor yours or anyone elses. I do disagree with you on what makes these kids more dangerous. It's the fact that they believe they can get away, and hence they do, and hence they commit more crime. Yes Newark did get a helicoptor...aptly named "Still I Rise" by his ..... man I'm gonna be cool but it was named by his Sharpeness. I believe Newark was getting another one. I understand that you must put life before a stolen crime, but let us not adopt policies that give criminals a way to get out and commit a future crime!

[SkaMan]

Friggin liberals.....

now, now proud, no need to get testy …… remember it is the friggin conservatives (NRA) who want the right to shoot at birds and wild game which make the laws so lax that guns end up in the hands of the punk pointing it at you and the rest of us.


as I said before I am for pursuits for the mere fact that if there is no pursuit the thieves will take what they can and initiate a high speed just to throw the police off. we should not handcuff the police like that, however it is equally important that we train them thoroughly in every aspect of a hot pursuit including when to break it off and do so successfully. there should be a balance.

tell me what you think. if the city employed a couple of those cracker-jack chopper guys or even train a couple of the police to be good like that, would it help? i am thinking it would make a difference because it would reduce the need for a highspeed chase.

[VeryProudNewarker77]

now, now proud, no need to get testy …… remember it is the friggin conservatives (NRA) who want the right to shoot at birds and wild game which make the laws so lax that guns end up in the hands of the punk pointing it at you and the rest of us.

Yes, because that punk kid obtained that gun legally to begin with. I do not personally own a weapon...in small part because I live in the People's Republic of New Jersey. However I will defend and advocate the right for law-abiding citizens to own guns because it is our right to do so under the 2nd Amendment. If they take away the 2nd Amendment, they will definitely take away the first. So I say if you're a law-abiding citizen and plan on commiting no crime (like being a straw-man for that punk kid), than buy your gun and shoot til your heart's content.



[B]as I said before I am for pursuits for the mere fact that if there is no pursuit the thieves will take what they can and initiate a high speed just to throw the police off. we should not handcuff the police like that, however it is equally important that we train them thoroughly in every aspect of a hot pursuit including when to break it off and do so successfully. there should be a balance.

tell me what you think. if the city employed a couple of those cracker-jack chopper guys or even train a couple of the police to be good like that, would it help? i am thinking it would make a difference because it would reduce the need for a highspeed chase.

I think if there was an eye in the sky, it would greatly reduce the need for high speed chases. I believe that's why Newark got 1 (2?). I think we both agree on principle that criminals ought not get away. I believe life should be valued, but at what expense? The law? The crime? The nature of the crime?

[stew]

yeah but do not forget testosterone is a powerful drug by itself. a testosterone-high cop behind the wheel of a cruiser is just as deadly a force as the stupid punk behind the wheel of a stolen number.
pursuit is fine but police have to know when to shut it down. let me ask you?

a father and son and driving down the road about to pass through an intersection, they have a green light. Same time, coming in the opposite direction is a 15 year old in a stolen number doing 80 mph with police in hot pursuit. the kid makes it through the intersection just ahead of the father and son, the police do not. they slam into the side of the car killing both father and son.

what do you say to the mother/wife waiting at home?

sorry? ops? better luck next time? my bad?

what do you say?


It would be an incredible tragedy. And given the fact that the police are in "hot pursuit", they are probably traveling at a high rate of speed and also are killed. But dont stolen cars crash and kill innocent people without being chased? How many of you Newark resident have witnessed a stolen car driving on the sidewalk? FLYING thru intersections?

It is by the grace of God that more people arent killed. Police Officers do not want to die in a pursuit chasing "only a stolen car", but kids dont grow up to be cops to watch them speed away from you laughing.

Stolen car thieves needed to be treated with severe punishment when they are caught. Sure, you can recover the car after the fact, but that just leaves the driver out there to do it again.

[BraveHeart]

I will eat them. Yes, I volunteer to eat all of the car thieves. I will round up as many as I can and I will begin eating them in front of the others, how about that for some right wing justice Dos-Sietes? It would definitely beat releasing them on a SILOD, (Summons In Lieu Of Detention...for you lay persons), so then can go steal another one to get home.

Stolen cars are treated as minor crimes in Newark. Forget that they are driving around at homicidal speeds and running intersections at will. Forget that just about every time we recover one it is either stripped or littered with drug paraphernalia, or both. Forget that all these, turn a blind eye tactics, adopted since the early 90's have led to the highest insurance rates in the country. Why is Newark so expensive when it comes to car insurance? It's the regular Joe citizen that ends up paying the bill.

I want to know how I can have a dual core computer, bluetooth cellphones, voice activated navigation systems and can't have a tool to disable a car I'm pursuing? I mean, forget all the science fiction, there has to be a way to shut down that fleeing car's computer right? Well in case you didn't know....here's the lowdown:

Road Patriot[TM]/Road Sentry[TM]

The Road Patriot is an automatically guided rocket-powered unit that is designed to stop a target vehicle by emitting an electromagnetic energy pulse that disrupts the vehicle's engine controls and associated sensors. The unit mounts underneath the bumper of a pursuit vehicle and is activated by a triggering mechanism that lowers the unit within 1 second to ground level, where it is then launched. Propelled by the rocket at a speed of 20 miles per hour faster than the pursuit vehicle, the device can be launched at up to seven car lengths behind the vehicle in pursuit.

Once disabled, the vehicle is drivable only in a "limper mode" before coming to a safe, rolling stop. A similar device to the Road Patriot is the Road Sentry. Also designed to disable a target vehicle's electrical components, the Road Sentry, which resembles a pancake-shaped bump in the road, can be armed and activated by either remote control or unmanned automatic control, allowing for advance placement of the device. Custom units can be obtained that allow for permanent placement into the road surface at critical high-traffic areas or in high-risk security areas. The Road Sentry is commercially
available. The Road Patriot is in the latter stages of development.
For more information, contact Non-Lethal Technologies, Inc., 1815
Higgins Road, Sleepy Hollow, IL 60118 (847-428-5676).

[VeryProudNewarker77]

I will eat them. Yes, I volunteer to eat all of the car thieves. I will round up as many as I can and I will begin eating them in front of the others, how about that for some right wing justice Dos-Sietes? It would definitely beat releasing them on a SILOD, (Summons In Lieu Of Detention...for you lay persons), so then can go steal another one to get home.

Stolen cars are treated as minor crimes in Newark. Forget that they are driving around at homicidal speeds and running intersections at will. Forget that just about every time we recover one it is either stripped or littered with drug paraphernalia, or both. Forget that all these, turn a blind eye tactics, adopted since the early 90's have led to the highest insurance rates in the country. Why is Newark so expensive when it comes to car insurance? It's the regular Joe citizen that ends up paying the bill.

I want to know how I can have a dual core computer, bluetooth cellphones, voice activated navigation systems and can't have a tool to disable a car I'm pursuing? I mean, forget all the science fiction, there has to be a way to shut down that fleeing car's computer right? Well in case you didn't know....here's the lowdown:

Road Patriot[TM]/Road Sentry[TM]

The Road Patriot is an automatically guided rocket-powered unit that is designed to stop a target vehicle by emitting an electromagnetic energy pulse that disrupts the vehicle's engine controls and associated sensors. The unit mounts underneath the bumper of a pursuit vehicle and is activated by a triggering mechanism that lowers the unit within 1 second to ground level, where it is then launched. Propelled by the rocket at a speed of 20 miles per hour faster than the pursuit vehicle, the device can be launched at up to seven car lengths behind the vehicle in pursuit.

Once disabled, the vehicle is drivable only in a "limper mode" before coming to a safe, rolling stop. A similar device to the Road Patriot is the Road Sentry. Also designed to disable a target vehicle's electrical components, the Road Sentry, which resembles a pancake-shaped bump in the road, can be armed and activated by either remote control or unmanned automatic control, allowing for advance placement of the device. Custom units can be obtained that allow for permanent placement into the road surface at critical high-traffic areas or in high-risk security areas. The Road Sentry is commercially
available. The Road Patriot is in the latter stages of development.
For more information, contact Non-Lethal Technologies, Inc., 1815
Higgins Road, Sleepy Hollow, IL 60118 (847-428-5676).

All these grants from homeland security, pentagon, yadda-yadda-yadda, and Newark can't even be at the forefront of this great technology. Oh well.....

I hope your dinner goes well, Brave.....:D I think it'd be a great deterent.

[Make Newark Clean]

Make, I always thought liberals had the easy answers and they too were usually wrong. I am dead-smack in the middle....with my views tending to go slightly more right than left. (I did vote for Clinton, Mcgayvey and Corzine in recent memory so give me some credit).

I would not trade my life for a stolen car, nor yours or anyone elses. I do disagree with you on what makes these kids more dangerous. It's the fact that they believe they can get away, and hence they do, and hence they commit more crime. Yes Newark did get a helicoptor...aptly named "Still I Rise" by his ..... man I'm gonna be cool but it was named by his Sharpeness. I believe Newark was getting another one. I understand that you must put life before a stolen crime, but let us not adopt policies that give criminals a way to get out and commit a future crime!

If police cars race through the streets pursuing criminals, innocent people are going to get maimed or killed. That is the prevailing understanding, and it's demonstrable and clear.

I understand your frustration with criminal behavior, but whatever is done to catch criminals should not put innocents at risk. People have families, children, loved ones... just like you.

We're all frustrated with crime, but polices further dehumanizing Newarkers will not prove positive. How much longer do you think it will be before some uninvolved child or adult gets killed, igniting anger? In the long run, a wider wedge will be driven between would-be allies and law enforcement.

That's why the practice was stopped.

[keytocity]

I understand the following, and this is my replay as I stated this,

1. Police Pursuits kill the most Police Officers, next to domestic violence calls.
2. Allowing offenders to flee after commiting crimes is not an option.

What would I do or say in reference to a lady whos father and child were killed by a police car, the same as any other car.

I would say "I regret to inform you your son and husband were killed in a motor vehicle accident".

Now I would also look from a personal human view.

If I was travelling and saw a vehicle run a light in front of me, I would do what I usually do, I would stop and make sure it was safe to continue, not pull into the intersection and get killed by a police car.

In the same senario I would also take for granted that I slow and look at every intersection in Newark, Because I already assume a stolen vehicle may come thru like a maniac.

I also moved out of Newark, Because I want to lessen the chance of my child who is 5 being killed along with me by a vehicle. While I accept he or I may die, like people do every day anyway, the TRUTH is I know that the chance of a car running thru a light outside of Newark is less, than IN Newark, where stealing cars and driving like maniacs has become and accepted pratice.

How would you like it if you called the police and said, "My car was stolen" or "someone broke into my house and stole my stuff" and the police said ok will do a report and contact you if we even find it.

Oh, by the way were not gonna look for it, cause if we do and they run off, well we dont do anything about it.

I live in Belleville, they will chase you and shoot you for having a tailight out. I also remeber the Mayor stating "We will continue to pursue offenders, and if people die so be it".

If you dont like it move. Most criminals live and come to Newark because they LIKE it, they LIKE doing what they want.

Until you become a victim, car broken into, or stolen, home broken into, or you wife raped you wont understand.

And for those who live outside of Newark, they should care too, because it only takes 10 minutes to reach a place about 20 miles around Newark
which means these offender can come to your homes also.

Also for into on grants and vehicle stop devices (I dont recommend a rocket fired device, cause I would hate to hit a junkie wandering in the street with an anti theft device) I offer this...


California Assemblymember Mike Leads Anti-Crime Demonstration
Getaway Cars Halted by High Tech Laser Device
This morning, Assemblymember Mike Honda (D-San Jose), Chair of the Assembly Committee on Public Safety, lead a fact-finding demonstration that may forever alter the manner in which police officers pursue suspects on California's streets and highways.

Assemblymember Honda assisted in the testing of the H.A.L.T. (High Speed Avoidance Using Laser Technology) system, a device intended to end the notorious high speed pursuits that have become all too common to a terrified public. The H.A.L.T. system works from a small micro-chip embedded in a motor vehicle that responds to a laser beam fired from a hand-held device. Once the microchip is activated, the vehicle will gradually reduce speed - safely and without injury to the driver, passengers, or innocent by-standers.

"If this device can be successfully implemented throughout the state, it promises to be a god-send for police officers. It may save countless lives, eliminate costly litigation against the state and local governments, and send a message to criminals that we are taking back our streets. We may be witnessing the end of perilous police chases in California," explained Assemblymember Honda.

After witnessing the demonstration, veteran police officer Denny Jenner of the Irvine Police Department stated "this is the most pro-active device I have ever seen to stop criminals through the use of technology!"
For further information consult C.H.G. Safety Technologies at (888).422.2901

[CaseClosed]

The biggest debate of all. But lets face it.

If you going to give a cop a gun, you should let him decide if it is feasible to pursue a vehicle.

The majority of weapons offenders go out and drink, and then drive around and shoot people.

If the cops could pursue again, (without fear of suspension for being cops and doing there jobs) and had vehicles like re-enforced trucks like the county police unit has, they could stop, and arrest the offenders.

The rest is on the courts.

Right now the PD is on the cleanup after the fact stage, taping up crime scenes, and not to aggressive for fear of retribution on them for doing the job they WANT to do.

Stop blaming the police for being the police.
Start blaming the offenders and fully prosecuting them..........




The majority of weapons offenders go out and drink, and then drive around and shoot people. "

we're you referring to the criminals or the police? I've seen a few cops leaving bars on duty and I've smelled alcohol on the breath of a few cops back in the day.


Using helicopters is a good idea and would be useful in keeping an eye on car thieves in pursuit. Criminals can't hide when they're being followed by a police helicopter. I've seen them used in LA with good results.

I shudder when I think about the woman crossing Broad Street a few years ago with her friend and was decapitated when police were in hot pursuit of a criminal.Her friend will never forget that image.

[BraveHeart]

I can't eat these guys 'cuz I'll pop positive for drugs. I don't think they'll buy what one notoriously bigoted superior on this job said about someone putting coke in his coffee coming from me. I wonder how that guy still has a job?

But I digress...the point myself and Key are trying to make is that there are ways to end pursuits before they get out of hand. When I worked with the ATTF,(the real Essex/Union one not the bastardized one), I was the "excellence of execution" when it came to P.I.T. maneuvers. When executed correctly I could deliver the contents of an entire vehicle without incident. That meant everyone in that car was kept in that car. The problem was I had to go elsewheres to get that training on my own and out of pocket. This was also due, in large, to the fact that Newark was not using Precision Immobilization Techniques or Pursuit Intervention Techniques.

As of this moment the best way to address this pursuit issue is through TRAINING and Technology. In acceptance that the training would take time, I favor the technological approach. Let's be real, I live in Newark, and have almost been killed at least six times by stolen cars that weren't even being chased. This problem isn't going away until they know they're going to get caught and punished. If I was armed with either of the implements that Key or I discussed, along with an unmarked vehicle, I could drive around all night looking for these guys and they wouldn't know what hit them. The rest would be up to the courts :mad:

[Nwrbr]

1) If a cop pulls me over for running a red light, I can simply speed like a bat out of hell and hope he didn't get my plate because hey, if it's for a traffic violation, he can't pursue (yeah right..... ;) )

2) If you want to commit a crime, if you're driving a real fast car you can probably get away because hey, cops want to value life and put that above his/her "sworn duty" to enforce the law.

Friggin liberals.....


What about his/her sworn duty to also protect the public. Chasing car through one of the most densly populated cities is not protecting the public. In fact it's harming the public.

[VeryProudNewarker77]

What about his/her sworn duty to also protect the public. Chasing car through one of the most densly populated cities is not protecting the public. In fact it's harming the public.

I don't want to sound like I want the public to be at risk, nor do I want to sound like I want cops to act reckless catching criminals.

What I do want is for the administration of both the City and NPD to not hide behind excuses and to make Newark safe for all. When it comes to stolen cars, I am one civilian who knows that despite what the media tells you, most stolen cars in Newark aren't even stolen IN Newark, but are recovered. These kids steal cars in surrounding towns and then dump them in either Newark or Jersey City. If the rest of Newark looked like the East or North in terms of quality of life, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The North is actually getting worst, and the "Easy East" is actually picking up some crime. It needs to be contained and we should all collectively as a community work out ways to prevent it.

[Make Newark Clean]

It would be an incredible tragedy. And given the fact that the police are in "hot pursuit", they are probably traveling at a high rate of speed and also are killed. But dont stolen cars crash and kill innocent people without being chased? How many of you Newark resident have witnessed a stolen car driving on the sidewalk? FLYING thru intersections?

It is by the grace of God that more people arent killed. Police Officers do not want to die in a pursuit chasing "only a stolen car", but kids dont grow up to be cops to watch them speed away from you laughing.

Stolen car thieves needed to be treated with severe punishment when they are caught. Sure, you can recover the car after the fact, but that just leaves the driver out there to do it again.

I agree that at times it is appropriate to chase a vehicle. Also, criminals will speed recklessly or do "donuts" through neighborhoods without police in hot pursuit.

Other than my concern for creating more life and limb risking situations that come with more chases, police have to be careful about managing the hearts and minds of citizens--us--who they cannot reduce crime without. If we get it in our minds that safety is secondary to pursuit, it helps the criminal element. You will watch the level of cooperation with police go down and polarization between the public and police go up.

With Cory's call to improve safety for Newark's residents, a logical result of those increased patrols will be more non-involved folks questioned and detained merely because something jumped off nearby. Tension may increase on the streets while Newark goes effectively from lawlessness to order. If you add to this volatile mix a zealous officer chasing some kat for a minor infraction and somebody's 5-year-old is accidentally struck and killed, whether by the police or the perpetrator, you have the potential for a riot.

So as we strive to make Newark a healthier, less crime-prone area, you don't have to "kill the patient to save him." People simplly are not going to stand for the perception of law enforcement disregarding their lives as much as the criminals. Many minorities, blacks in particular, are already skeptical of the police. You don't want to stoke that mindset by being reckless.

P.S. The new technology stuff sounds interesting. Who knows, maybe they'll come a day when citizens accept or are forced to accept such devices in their personal vehicles. Doesn't Lo-Jack already offer similar technology if a car owner wants it? Making such technology mandatory for all vehicles is another discussion. How much power do people want Government to have over their lives? It could be a hard sell.

[VeryProudNewarker77]

Making such technology mandatory for all vehicles is another discussion. How much power do people want Government to have over their lives? It could be a hard sell.

The easiest thing the government can do or say is that driving is a privilege, not a right. The car is yours, but the right to drive it isn't.